Why is My Focusrite Feed Echoing

03-12-2015, 03:09 PM

Having a hard time Googling my problem because the words to describe the issue are too generic and/or sound like other things.

I just moved from recording my podcast with two AT2020USB mics into a old MBP to XLR AT2035 and AT2020 mics through a Focusrite Scarlett 18i8 into a Toshiba Satellite laptop running Windows 8.1 x64. Audio drivers and Mix Control are latest available.

While recording our first podcast with the new gear last week, my co-host and I had a constant metallic tone in our headphones like a delay or chorus effect with a small reverb. It didn't sound like long latency and I had the buffer in Mix Control dialed down from 10ms to 6ms, but it never went away even when set to Zero Latency monitoring. We just had to cope with the distraction. The actual recording was OK.

While experimenting over the weekend with just one mic, I was getting the same effect unless I muted the track in Reaper, only monitoring the direct feed via Zero Latency. The track meters were moving and it recorded, but while it's a barely acceptable kludge for talky podcasts, when I get around to recording music with VSTs, this won't do.

Another thing I noticed was that none of the mute buttons, etc. in Mix Control appeared to have any effect. So what's the purpose of Mix Control? While waiting for my order to come into stock, I'd watched several videos about routing and none of them seem applicable to what I'm seeing. I tried ASIO4ALL, but that moots the (supposed) functionality of Mix Control and it didn't improve the hollow sound the Focusrite/Mix Control driver delivered.

Last night I recorded another podcast. Part of it was an interview recorded in a rather live room (wood floors, etc.) and so there was substantial bleed between the mics (AT2035 and AT2020 condensers). When I tried to tame this in the mix with an expander on the tracks, it didn't seem to have any effect until it made a mess of the audio (pumping, cutting off sound). I spent over 90 minutes trying to figure out what settings I should use - the preset that always served me well when recording with the old USB mics on the MBP to silence crosstalk and the noisy furnace blower just didn't work - and since it was getting to be 2 am I just gave up and rendered the podcast, figuring that it'll just have to sound echoey.

When it finished and I checked the MP3 on the laptop's speakers it sounded much better. On my work computer's soundbar and on headphones (A-T M40X) it also sounds decent. The excessive echo and room tone I couldn't tame while mixing is gone. All I did was apply some Scarlett Red 3 Compressor to the tracks since the expander wasn't working. It would've been better with the expander applied, but it's usable.

For some reason, I am unable to accurately monitor and mix through the interface. This is clearly unacceptable. I expected a little learning curve moving from a simple USB mic setup monitored through the laptop, but as things are now there is no way to work because I literally can't tell what's happening with the tracks as something is adding "reverb" where there isn't any on the tracks. I'm hoping it's something simple to correct, but I've already spent a couple of hours fighting it.

What am I missing here? TIA!

03-12-2015, 04:05 PM

are you monitoring via reaper too? i mean, did you activate the monitoring button on the armed track?

the mix control let you create submixes routing the input of your interface to the output via hardware with 0 latency, and you can mix it with what yout daw is playing (on your mix control are the channels named DAW1, DAW2 etc).

http://us.focusrite.com/answerbase/v...ntrol-tutorial

take a look to this video, it's clearer than me .

If you enable both the channel on mix control AND the monitoring for the armed track in reaper, you will have that phase issue because you will hear both the direct signal via hardware and the delayed one from the daw (10ms or less, but enough to create that "metallic sound with reverb").

EDIT:
http://us.focusrite.com/answerbase/v...ntrol-tutorial

this one is better, start talkik about the mix control at 5 minutes

03-12-2015, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by metal_priest View Post

are you monitoring via reaper too? i mean, did you activate the monitoring button on the armed track?

Yes, I had Mic 1 on in both Mix Control (MC) and in Reaper. I watched the video which helped clear things up a little, but I've watched those before and I still ran into this snag.

Q: Does MC have anything to do with routing inputs to Reaper or is it just a complicated monitor mixer thing?

I messed around with the settings and for a moment I *thought* I had sorted things by shutting off Reaper monitoring and just piping the mic through MC, but when I wanted to test listening to the DAW output (so I could use VSTs like amp sims) and shut off the mic, it sounds like the phasing/latency effect has returned. I'm pretty sure I've got the mic off in MC and only the Reaper outputs are coming back, but it's clearly delayed.

In MC I have the Ch. 1 set to Analog 1; Ch. 17+18 set to DAW3/DAW4; Mix 1 to Line H/P L/Line H/P R; Mix 1 (L) to Output 3 and (R) to 4. For some reason, the right channels of 17+18 and Mix 1 are 6 db louder than the left despite Track 1 in Reaper being mono and showing even levels. Reaper is set with Record Monitoring On. (Auto does the same; Off mutes the channel.) Turning off the mic on MC Ch. 1 has no effect on the echo.

For grins I switched to ASIO4ALL and it seems a bit better, but still seems to have the delay. I'm confused and stumped. I'm sure I'm doing something somewhat wrong, but what? TIA.

03-13-2015, 01:43 AM

ok, i think you can use the focusrite native asio drivers instead of the A4A, make it simple

Anyway, MC is just a monitoring mixer, it doesnt route anything to your daw.
You can decide to not use it and do all the monitoring and routing from reaper, or let MC take care about all the monitoring stuff and let reaper just do the recording and the mixing stuff.

For me it's better use MC for monitoring because it's a true hardware 0 latency system.
For doing it you need to disable the monitoring on the tracks in reaper, not on, not auto...just off.
By this way you mic will be heard only throught MC.

So, now you should have on reaper side:

track 1: mic---> analog in 1, master parent send, no hardware output, monitoring off and armed ready to record
track 2: backing track (let's say...), master parent send, no hardware output, monitoring off and not armed
master: output on analog out 1&2 (or 3&4, but let's say 1&2 to make it easy)

on MC side:

ch 1: set on analog 1, fader at 0db
ch 17/18: set on DAW 1&2 (or the same output you have on the reaper master track)
mix 1: to you hardware out for speaker and headphones

With this configuration on MC you will have:
- on ch1 you level for mic monitoring (and just monitoring not the record level, that is set by the preamp)
- on ch17/18 the daw outputl level monitoring (and just monitoring, not the overall mix level for the project, that one is set by the master level in reaper)

With the monitoring OFF in reaper, when you are recording in the daw ch in MC you will hear only the backingtrack, when you will playback to hear what you have record you will hear alse the track 1.

I hope i'm clear, not easy to explain in a different language

03-13-2015, 07:26 AM

Thank you very much for the reply. Due to my schedule, I'm not going to be able to try your suggestions until next Tuesday evening, but I'm a bit confused by what you're saying, though I don't think it's an Italiano-->English translation issue.

First, you suggest turning monitoring off in Reaper, but as I noted, if I do that it cuts off the audio entirely from the track AFAIK. Auto and On have the meters showing activity; Off mutes the track. Does it start passing audio once recording has started? If so, that's rather inconvenient to get levels and sounds dialed in, isn't it?

Next, does your suggested signal path allow for monitoring virtual instruments. When I'm recording something other than a microphone, I'm going to need my VSTs - Guitar Rig, POD Farm, Superior Drummer, whatever - and if all I can hear is the dry guitar plinking away direct in my headphones, that doesn't seem very practical.

What I don't understand is if the hollowness was caused by phasing/delay issues caused by hearing BOTH the output from MC in addition to delayed output from Reaper, how come I still heard the hollowness while mixing (until I switched the routing around as I mentioned in my previous post) and how come it sounds delayed when I just (I think) monitor the Reaper output? While there will be a slight delay in just monitoring the output, I think it would be preferable to having the doubled effect, right? Also, how can I provide reverb to vocalists while they're tracking unless I somehow monitor the Reaper output?

While we're here, let's add this extra layer of complexity to the pile: I'm eventually going to need to figure out a mix-minus routing to be able to add Skype calls to the podcast. I've done preliminary testing by configuring Skype to use the Scarlett as the mic and the laptop's headphone jack as output, running a 1/8" TRS to two 1/4" TS Y-cable to Inputs 5 & 6 on the back of the Scarlett, then mapping those to a second Reaper track. Both sides seem to record properly in the Test Call (i.e. RoboGirl is on her track, I'm on mine, I'm being recorded by Skype and played back) but I haven't had an opportunity to test with a person yet. (Don't know many active Skype users.) Since the point of a mix-minus is to prevent the caller from hearing themselves back, shouldn't it just be a matter of routing, but if so, how?

Sorry if I'm seeming dense or slow to catch on. Three decades ago I recorded on a Tascam Porta One cassette four-track. It was as basic as you could get - only recorded two tracks at a time, two-band EQ, no FX loops, had to print FX to tape when recording, etc. - but I got so much done. After that died, I bought a Yamaha AW4416 for over $2000 and never recorded a single note with it because it was like moving from a skateboard to a starship in complexity. Now I'm trying to move onto DAW recording and it seems so complicated. I'm not a dumb guy - I actually build my own computers - but this DAW stuff stumps me.

Thanks again for the assistance you're trying to provide.

03-13-2015, 08:07 AM

ok, so things are little bit more complicated than i thought..
let's take it slow and one step at time

Probably you will not be able to do this until nex tuesday, but...can you please post here a screenshot of your reaper session?
track panels and routing matrix.
So we can see exactly what's your situation and what need to be fixed.

What i said before works, i know for sure because of the theory AND because i use the same system (i have a liquid saffire not a saffire pro, but the MC is the same).
So, if you still hear this issue, there's something wrong somewhere that we can't notice without seeing your setup!

Of course i refer to direct monitoring via hardware only for mic, if you use virtual instruments or real time processing fx (like guitar rig), you need to do the opposite..disable the input into MC and turn on monitoring on reaper.
By the way, monitoring doesnt affect the meters, that is the arm button, i put a screenshot

so even with monitoring off you should be able to see the meters moving.

For the skype thing, if it works with the echo test it will work with a real person too.
The input in skype is just the mic.
I'm not sure they can hear if you send some audio in play.
To do that probably you should use the playback track in MC (but i never used it...) but i think we're going to complicate
One step at time :P

03-13-2015, 08:36 AM

ok, that's strange

when you can let us see your screenshot

03-12-2015, 03:09 PM	#1
Human being with feelings Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 27	"Hollow reverb" sound when recording/mixing with Scarlett 18i8 Having a hard time Googling my problem because the words to describe the issue are too generic and/or sound like other things. I just moved from recording my podcast with two AT2020USB mics into a old MBP to XLR AT2035 and AT2020 mics through a Focusrite Scarlett 18i8 into a Toshiba Satellite laptop running Windows 8.1 x64. Audio drivers and Mix Control are latest available. While recording our first podcast with the new gear last week, my co-host and I had a constant metallic tone in our headphones like a delay or chorus effect with a small reverb. It didn't sound like long latency and I had the buffer in Mix Control dialed down from 10ms to 6ms, but it never went away even when set to Zero Latency monitoring. We just had to cope with the distraction. The actual recording was OK. While experimenting over the weekend with just one mic, I was getting the same effect unless I muted the track in Reaper, only monitoring the direct feed via Zero Latency. The track meters were moving and it recorded, but while it's a barely acceptable kludge for talky podcasts, when I get around to recording music with VSTs, this won't do. Another thing I noticed was that none of the mute buttons, etc. in Mix Control appeared to have any effect. So what's the purpose of Mix Control? While waiting for my order to come into stock, I'd watched several videos about routing and none of them seem applicable to what I'm seeing. I tried ASIO4ALL, but that moots the (supposed) functionality of Mix Control and it didn't improve the hollow sound the Focusrite/Mix Control driver delivered. Last night I recorded another podcast. Part of it was an interview recorded in a rather live room (wood floors, etc.) and so there was substantial bleed between the mics (AT2035 and AT2020 condensers). When I tried to tame this in the mix with an expander on the tracks, it didn't seem to have any effect until it made a mess of the audio (pumping, cutting off sound). I spent over 90 minutes trying to figure out what settings I should use - the preset that always served me well when recording with the old USB mics on the MBP to silence crosstalk and the noisy furnace blower just didn't work - and since it was getting to be 2 am I just gave up and rendered the podcast, figuring that it'll just have to sound echoey. When it finished and I checked the MP3 on the laptop's speakers it sounded much better. On my work computer's soundbar and on headphones (A-T M40X) it also sounds decent. The excessive echo and room tone I couldn't tame while mixing is gone. All I did was apply some Scarlett Red 3 Compressor to the tracks since the expander wasn't working. It would've been better with the expander applied, but it's usable. For some reason, I am unable to accurately monitor and mix through the interface. This is clearly unacceptable. I expected a little learning curve moving from a simple USB mic setup monitored through the laptop, but as things are now there is no way to work because I literally can't tell what's happening with the tracks as something is adding "reverb" where there isn't any on the tracks. I'm hoping it's something simple to correct, but I've already spent a couple of hours fighting it. What am I missing here? TIA!

03-12-2015, 04:05 PM	#2
Human being with feelings Join Date: May 2011 Location: Padova Posts: 1,610	are you monitoring via reaper too? i mean, did you activate the monitoring button on the armed track? the mix control let you create submixes routing the input of your interface to the output via hardware with 0 latency, and you can mix it with what yout daw is playing (on your mix control are the channels named DAW1, DAW2 etc). http://us.focusrite.com/answerbase/v...ntrol-tutorial take a look to this video, it's clearer than me . If you enable both the channel on mix control AND the monitoring for the armed track in reaper, you will have that phase issue because you will hear both the direct signal via hardware and the delayed one from the daw (10ms or less, but enough to create that "metallic sound with reverb"). EDIT: http://us.focusrite.com/answerbase/v...ntrol-tutorial this one is better, start talkik about the mix control at 5 minutes Last edited by metal_priest; 03-12-2015 at 04:10 PM.

03-12-2015, 07:11 PM	#3
Human being with feelings Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 27	Quote: Originally Posted by metal_priest are you monitoring via reaper too? i mean, did you activate the monitoring button on the armed track? Yes, I had Mic 1 on in both Mix Control (MC) and in Reaper. I watched the video which helped clear things up a little, but I've watched those before and I still ran into this snag. Q: Does MC have anything to do with routing inputs to Reaper or is it just a complicated monitor mixer thing? I messed around with the settings and for a moment I thought I had sorted things by shutting off Reaper monitoring and just piping the mic through MC, but when I wanted to test listening to the DAW output (so I could use VSTs like amp sims) and shut off the mic, it sounds like the phasing/latency effect has returned. I'm pretty sure I've got the mic off in MC and only the Reaper outputs are coming back, but it's clearly delayed. In MC I have the Ch. 1 set to Analog 1; Ch. 17+18 set to DAW3/DAW4; Mix 1 to Line H/P L/Line H/P R; Mix 1 (L) to Output 3 and (R) to 4. For some reason, the right channels of 17+18 and Mix 1 are 6 db louder than the left despite Track 1 in Reaper being mono and showing even levels. Reaper is set with Record Monitoring On. (Auto does the same; Off mutes the channel.) Turning off the mic on MC Ch. 1 has no effect on the echo. For grins I switched to ASIO4ALL and it seems a bit better, but still seems to have the delay. I'm confused and stumped. I'm sure I'm doing something somewhat wrong, but what? TIA.

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03-13-2015, 01:43 AM	#4
Human being with feelings Join Date: May 2011 Location: Padova Posts: 1,610	ok, i think you can use the focusrite native asio drivers instead of the A4A, make it simple Anyway, MC is just a monitoring mixer, it doesnt route anything to your daw. You can decide to not use it and do all the monitoring and routing from reaper, or let MC take care about all the monitoring stuff and let reaper just do the recording and the mixing stuff. For me it's better use MC for monitoring because it's a true hardware 0 latency system. For doing it you need to disable the monitoring on the tracks in reaper, not on, not auto...just off. By this way you mic will be heard only throught MC. So, now you should have on reaper side: track 1: mic---> analog in 1, master parent send, no hardware output, monitoring off and armed ready to record track 2: backing track (let's say...), master parent send, no hardware output, monitoring off and not armed master: output on analog out 1&2 (or 3&4, but let's say 1&2 to make it easy) on MC side: ch 1: set on analog 1, fader at 0db ch 17/18: set on DAW 1&2 (or the same output you have on the reaper master track) mix 1: to you hardware out for speaker and headphones With this configuration on MC you will have: - on ch1 you level for mic monitoring (and just monitoring not the record level, that is set by the preamp) - on ch17/18 the daw outputl level monitoring (and just monitoring, not the overall mix level for the project, that one is set by the master level in reaper) With the monitoring OFF in reaper, when you are recording in the daw ch in MC you will hear only the backingtrack, when you will playback to hear what you have record you will hear alse the track 1. I hope i'm clear, not easy to explain in a different language

03-13-2015, 07:26 AM	#5
Human being with feelings Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 27	Thank you very much for the reply. Due to my schedule, I'm not going to be able to try your suggestions until next Tuesday evening, but I'm a bit confused by what you're saying, though I don't think it's an Italiano-->English translation issue. First, you suggest turning monitoring off in Reaper, but as I noted, if I do that it cuts off the audio entirely from the track AFAIK. Auto and On have the meters showing activity; Off mutes the track. Does it start passing audio once recording has started? If so, that's rather inconvenient to get levels and sounds dialed in, isn't it? Next, does your suggested signal path allow for monitoring virtual instruments. When I'm recording something other than a microphone, I'm going to need my VSTs - Guitar Rig, POD Farm, Superior Drummer, whatever - and if all I can hear is the dry guitar plinking away direct in my headphones, that doesn't seem very practical. What I don't understand is if the hollowness was caused by phasing/delay issues caused by hearing BOTH the output from MC in addition to delayed output from Reaper, how come I still heard the hollowness while mixing (until I switched the routing around as I mentioned in my previous post) and how come it sounds delayed when I just (I think) monitor the Reaper output? While there will be a slight delay in just monitoring the output, I think it would be preferable to having the doubled effect, right? Also, how can I provide reverb to vocalists while they're tracking unless I somehow monitor the Reaper output? While we're here, let's add this extra layer of complexity to the pile: I'm eventually going to need to figure out a mix-minus routing to be able to add Skype calls to the podcast. I've done preliminary testing by configuring Skype to use the Scarlett as the mic and the laptop's headphone jack as output, running a 1/8" TRS to two 1/4" TS Y-cable to Inputs 5 & 6 on the back of the Scarlett, then mapping those to a second Reaper track. Both sides seem to record properly in the Test Call (i.e. RoboGirl is on her track, I'm on mine, I'm being recorded by Skype and played back) but I haven't had an opportunity to test with a person yet. (Don't know many active Skype users.) Since the point of a mix-minus is to prevent the caller from hearing themselves back, shouldn't it just be a matter of routing, but if so, how? Sorry if I'm seeming dense or slow to catch on. Three decades ago I recorded on a Tascam Porta One cassette four-track. It was as basic as you could get - only recorded two tracks at a time, two-band EQ, no FX loops, had to print FX to tape when recording, etc. - but I got so much done. After that died, I bought a Yamaha AW4416 for over $2000 and never recorded a single note with it because it was like moving from a skateboard to a starship in complexity. Now I'm trying to move onto DAW recording and it seems so complicated. I'm not a dumb guy - I actually build my own computers - but this DAW stuff stumps me. Thanks again for the assistance you're trying to provide.

03-13-2015, 08:07 AM	#6
Human being with feelings Join Date: May 2011 Location: Padova Posts: 1,610	ok, so things are little bit more complicated than i thought.. let's take it slow and one step at time Probably you will not be able to do this until nex tuesday, but...can you please post here a screenshot of your reaper session? track panels and routing matrix. So we can see exactly what's your situation and what need to be fixed. What i said before works, i know for sure because of the theory AND because i use the same system (i have a liquid saffire not a saffire pro, but the MC is the same). So, if you still hear this issue, there's something wrong somewhere that we can't notice without seeing your setup! Of course i refer to direct monitoring via hardware only for mic, if you use virtual instruments or real time processing fx (like guitar rig), you need to do the opposite..disable the input into MC and turn on monitoring on reaper. By the way, monitoring doesnt affect the meters, that is the arm button, i put a screenshot so even with monitoring off you should be able to see the meters moving. For the skype thing, if it works with the echo test it will work with a real person too. The input in skype is just the mic. I'm not sure they can hear if you send some audio in play. To do that probably you should use the playback track in MC (but i never used it...) but i think we're going to complicate One step at time :P

03-13-2015, 08:36 AM	#8
Human being with feelings Join Date: May 2011 Location: Padova Posts: 1,610	ok, that's strange when you can let us see your screenshot